Lived Experience Forum

[Sahara]

Thanks for writing, @Owlunar ,

I am not going to cut ties with my friend. The two women who have both accused her of going after their husbands have taken major steps back from her..... and she has responded with anger and by smearing them to other people, trying to make out that she is the 'victim' in the whole saga.  She is subtle, as always, of course. But she gives herself away- "I haven't done anything wrong, I have only even been a good friend to these men."  Friendship? I don't know... implying you are "good friends" with another woman's husband is suspicious to me. I always thought so. Like I said, it's subtle, and if you didn't know her well you might think her innocent, but I don't. 

That's the thing with intelligent, manipulative narcissists. They don't come right out and show their true colors. They are very underhand. It's always denial, blaming others, and stating what a 'great friend' they are. They state their values out loud a lot. It can confuse you!

"I am a community-minded person". "I am caring and considerate." "I value friendship." Beware of people who feel the need to constantly state their values. You show what your values are by how you act  - not by making declarations. 

I am learning so much in the past few days!! Covert narcissists are sneaky and deceptive. It would be difficult to spot one unless you have studied them. But I always knew there was something not right with my friend. 

[Owlunar]

Hi @Sahara 

I read your post this morning but it took until now to get around to posting - busy day - one out of the box - all good stuff and really warm weather in Melbourne where we have been chilly-chilly-warmer-hot-and-cold-front - over and over again

So you are not cutting ties with this "friend" - I certainly doubt it would be good upfront when she indulges herself with smear campaigns - I've some of that in my life too - and on-line in the past - some people can't help themselves

So - what are you thinking of doing to protect yourself - I agree with what you posted yesterday I think - that she is lonely and I get it that you would not want to make things worse for her - if you are wrong then - mm - it would be against your nature I think

I agree that the things we do rather than what we say shows our colours - anyone can say - "I'm a good friend" and blame others and be in denial of their true self - we all might say that sort of thing sometimes but when it's frequent then it seems sus - I would be uncomfortable myself - and wary

Whatever you do please be careful - thinking of you

Dec

[Sahara]

Hi @Owlunar ,

good to hear from you. One thing that struck me in what you said "people can't help themselves".  That is what I always thought too... and it is pretty normal to think that way. The average person with a conscious gives people the benefit of the doubt and says something like that:- "Oh, they can't help themselves."

But what I am now now learning is that in many cases these manipulative people know exactly what they are doing.... and they do it for personal gain, pure and simple.

That makes me feel very unnerved. 

I have been watching youtube videos of Dr. George Simon - it's a real eye-opener! He shares information about how manipulative people operate, and about how our modern society rewards people who are out to further their own interests. 

Actually, it's a bit yucky. 

[Owlunar]

Hi again @Sahara 

This is interesting and giving me something to think about - 

When it comes to people's beaviour I wrote some people cannot help themselves - I did use the phrase carelessly this time but I really do like to be picked up because I try to be accurate when I write - so I had a look to see the difference between a reason and an excuse

A reason is an explanation of perhaps the causes or motivation for behaviours

An  excuse is to lessen the blame for faults etc - persone might use to justify themselves when they are defending themselves

I looked up the difference because I have tried to ease things in my own mind about my mother's behaviour by saying that I see the reasons for what she did but in no way was it an excuse. I don't think she ever thought she was wrong or saw any reason for her to change - that's a problem when people enable codepented behaviour

Anyway - back to your frlend

I think you are right when you say manipulative people know exactly what they are doing and if called out on it would justify themselves vigorously saying - "Why would anyone say such a thing about me - I only want the best for my friends, family etc - oh - woe is me - how can you say such a thing when I am such a good friend?  Look how I do such and such for you and really care"  I can just hear my mother though she didn't use those exact words

It is unnerving to be on the receiving end - yukky - yes

I've made a note about to look up Dr George Simon on U-tube and see what he has to say about this - 

All the best with this person - at least you know what she's about

btw - I had a friendship with a young woman when our children were in primary school and it lasted for years. But she was one of those nay-sayers about my going to university and told me I had to stop or she couldn't see me for 6 months. The friendship was over - she isn't part of my life now and I have no idea where she lives and I have my degree - and that is something that is hard-copy and can't be taken away but the loss of that friendship was very hard - and for whatever reason I dreamed about her last night

Dec

[Appleblossom]

Hi @Sahara  good to see you after all this time.

@Owlunar 

Reason and excuse and blame concepts are big and I have a lot of work still to do to sort out all my family issues.

Off to table strewn with 
tools

colour pencils

Emotion Wheels

 and working on Kawa (River) model.

Looking at Simon George.  too.  

[Owlunar]

Hi @Appleblossom 

It's a huge subject indeed.

I had a need to get my mother off my soul and I did this for my own sake - it had nothing to do with her except maybe I saw how she had massive regrets when she was reaching the end of her life with so much that she had never examined while she could

And no one told me to - and it is a huge effort to do that and I think it is a process rather than an act

But everyone circumstances are different and we can only deal with things as they appear to us - so I do hear you - enormous familiy issues to sort out 

All the best with it - Dec

[Sahara]

@Owlunar ,

I had a dream about an old friend of mine, too, last night. It must be all this talk about suspicious frenemies! 

I'm sorry that your friend broke up with you over you wanting to go to university.... that is quite excessive behavior on her part and clearly disturbed, in my opinion. My frenemy would not do something so obvious- she is very devious. 

Sorry, I was not trying to pick you up on that phrase you used, as I thought exactly the same thing until a few days ago, when I really delved into this.

With someone you loved, yes, it's very hard to think of them that way- that they knew exactly what they were doing, that they deliberately used manipulative behaviors .... it is hard to get inside the head of someone like that. In fact, it is probably impossible. 

Dr. George Simon says that manipulative characters understand what a 'conscious' is and so they can prey on conscientious people. But their own conscious is 'impaired'. It's not absent - that would make them a sociopath - but unfortunately it is impaired.

Dr. Simon says that they usually understand what they are doing is taking advantage of our trusting natures. (I think he does say that in very small doses, manipulation is not that unusual and most people would have used it from time to time.)

I guess that to them, taking advantage of someone is not such a bad thing! The probably see it as the 'strong' out-smarting the 'weak' - like some kind of law of nature or something.

With my friend, she preys on my empathetic nature. I allow her to go on and on about herself, because I like to feel useful. She always says "you are a wise woman" but she doesn't really take my advice (not that I care about that- she can take it or leave it- it's her life.) But the thing is... she is probably not giving me the full story, anyway, so she is wasting her time telling me stuff. She might just enjoy being listened to, I suppose.

I caught her out in a lie recently, but I haven't told her that I know that she lied. Other things she has told me about herself absolutely don't add up, on reflection, but I let them slip. The one thing I aways pick her up on is her 'put-downs' of me and sometimes of other people, too. She does back down when I do this and so I have kept doing it. 

To the best of my knowledge, I have learnt that it is not a god idea to call people out on their manipulations. They can become verbally abusive and smear you to others, behind your back.  I realised that I know my friend is capable of this.

[Sahara]

Hi @Appleblossom ,

good to see you again. I'm glad you are reading George Simon. He explains things very well, I have gained so much from him. There is an amazing Youube video called "Understanding & Dealing with Manipulative People Dr. George Simon interview" that you may be interested in.

Sounds like you are enjoying your art. 🙂

[Appleblossom]

Thank you @Owlunar  and @Sahara 

Got distracted by horticulture at home, tho my horti shift at zoo was cancelled.  Wind has been high and the change is a coming.

There are large areas:

Conscious

Pre conscious and 

Subconscious

Conscience is generally a moral faculty tho it could be from different cultures or world views, but some sense of values or right from wrong.

I find Simon George's discussion of defensive structures important.  That is why mother could never relate to me, because I symbolised her big fall from grace even when I was loving her, supporting her and trying to connect with her.  I dont think she joined the dots in her CONSCIOUS mind, tho in ways she could be conscientious.  I think force of circumstance was a bigger player than a specific flaw in my mother.  

[Owlunar]

Hi @Appleblossom 

It must have been hard for you dealing with your mother when you were caring for her - such a character flaw and then seeing you as a symbol of her fall from grace - ah - yes - I do get the picture but it was hardly your fault - but then your mother never had the conscience to see that

I either inherited or learned my mother's work ethic and thrift - but I see hers as excessive now - always working and really mean at times - I might have been of a tender age but seeing her varnish the floor boards around the carpet squares always made me tense - that seemed unimportant to me when I could my brother needed attention and I would have to wait until after him - I know that seems childish - actually it is - but then I was a child

We have had the change Bayside - east - it would be after you I think - those winds are really strong and gusty

Stay safe

Dec