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Willy
Senior Contributor

Finally Found - A CBT-p Practitioner

After two and a half years of searching and a number of false starts I have finally found an experienced CBT-p practitioner. CBT-p stands for Cognitive Behaviour Therapy for Psychosis. It appears to be a promising non drug based intervention for psychotic mental health problems like bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. Ordinary CBT practitioners are readily available but the “P” word for those willing and able to deal with psychosis seems to be the stumbling block. There seems to be very few practitioners in Australia with these skills and experience.

I had my first session last Friday and found it challenging. By the end of the session I had about as much as I could take and was glad when it came to an end. We spent a fair bit of time looking at techniques for acknowledging thoughts and feelings, connecting with physical sensations in the body and then anchoring oneself and returning to the task or situation at hand after experiencing a triggering situation.

It sounds easy enough but will probably take a lot of practice to get to the point where it becomes a natural part of everyday functioning. From what I have read about CBT-p, my first experience was pretty much as expected. I would rate my first session as “so far so good”. For the time being I will continue to use meds sparingly but maybe, just maybe...

Why are there so few CBT-p practitioners in Australia? In the UK, I believe that almost anyone who wants it can get free treatment via their National Health System. There appears to be similar programs in a number of European countries. Even the US, which is not well known for its socialised medical services seems to have a network that covers most of the East Coast of America.

My CBT-p sessions are not exactly cheap. Even after the Medicare rebate I am still out of pocket $95.50 for each session. I have elected to undertake fortnightly sessions but even so it is still a significant bite out of my retirement income and Medicare rebates for psychology are limited to a number of sessions. I have known quite a few people with schizophrenia who would be unable to afford this amount despite being desperate to reduce their dependence on anti-psychotic medication.

In Australia all health services, including mental health, are shared by the federal and state governments. This arrangement has evolved over time. Generally, the federal government gives money to the states who are responsible for the the delivery of services. Over the years the federal government has created a number of important mental health initiatives. Not the least of these is the ability to claim Medicare rebates for psychology. This gives at least some help to those who wish to explore alternative options to treatment with drugs.

One of the criticisms of CBT-p is that it can require quite a bit of effort for a relatively prolonged period of time to become effective. Many people, particularly when heavily medicated can’t muster or sustain this effort and find it easier to just take pills.

I have no argument with those who are satisfied with their drug based treatment providing the risks and pitfalls of these treatments are openly made known to them. In my experience this is often not the case. Many of us however, for various reasons, are not happy with a drug based approach and there are some very good reasons for this dissatisfaction.

On the 30th Dec 2021 the Mental Health Authorities of the Victorian Government (MHA) forced their way into my home with the help of police. They claimed that I was a danger to the public. There was no reasonable basis whatsoever for this claim but apparently it is a common excuse used to get around the law that would otherwise make forced entry illegal.

It appears that the MHA’s agenda was to sedate me and take me to the Peter James psychiatric aged care facility. I understand that the conditions there are appalling and once you get put in there it is very difficult to ever get out again. Obviously I wasn’t too thrilled about their plan so they proceeded to harass and bully me for some hours. I assume this was to try and trigger me into reacting which would then justify them using force. When that didn’t work they tried to talk me into allowing them to inject me with a slow release anti-psychotic medication. Given my age and general health, this type of treatment would have been extremely dangerous and possibly fatal. In the end I negotiated with them to undertake a course of CBT-p which of course I had been wanting to do anyway but had not been able to find a suitable practitioner. After raiding my medical cupboard and taking an inventory of all my medication, including a lot of non psychiatric stuff, they left.

Later that afternoon someone from the Peter James Centre rang me. They put me in touch with Eastern Melbourne Primary Health Network, a federal government organisation, who were supposed to be able to arrange a CBT-p practitioner for me. Several weeks later, after a lot of messing around, they were unable to find anyone.

I have since made a complaint to the Victorian Mental Health Complaints Commissioner about the forced entry to my home etc. The complaint was quickly fobbed off with a bunch of procedural excuses as to why it could not be considered. This matter is still far from being resolved to my satisfaction. I plan to escalate it.

After a few hours spent looking back through old postings in the SANE forum, I have come to the conclusion that my experiences were by no means unique.

The recent Royal Commission into Victoria’s Mental Health System shows that the existing system at least in Victoria is dysfunctional and toxic. I would be surprised if it is much better in other states

The state governments appear to be caught in a time warp. Their approach to mental health is based on a long outdated biomedical model which sees mental illness as an organic brain disease that can be diagnosed and “fixed” with drugs.

There is now a vast amount of research from around the world refuting these simplistic ideas as well as pointing out the extreme danger of the overuse of psychiatric medication which has been responsible for a substantial number of premature deaths. Despite all this evidence the biomedical model of mental illness is alive and thriving throughout the world. It appears to be enthusiastically supported by strong vested interests backed up by some very dubious scientific claims.

The state health authorities seem to have adopted an almost fanatical agenda to enforce this model and use “chemical incarceration” as it is sometimes called as the preferred method for dealing with serious psychotic “illnesses” like bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. Within this official mindset, non drug based treatments like CBT-p are obviously not even going to be given consideration unless a massive cultural shift takes place within government bureaucracies.

At a federal government level things appear to be somewhat better. Unlike the states they seem to take a much broader view of possible causes and solutions for mental health.

According to federal government statistics 20% of the Australian population or more than 5 million people currently experience some form of mental health problem. Only about 0.5% or 130,000 of those people experience psychotic problems although I have seen claims elsewhere that this figure is much higher.

Irrespective of the actual figures there is obviously much less demand for treatment of serious mental illness. I would suggest that people with bipolar disorder and schizophrenia have, to a large extent, become the forgotten, marginalised minority. In many cases I would also suggest that these so called illnesses and the life styles of those effected are often made substantially worse by the inappropriate treatment that they receive.

The cost to support such people, which is mostly born by the federal government is far from trivial. My back of an envelope estimate suggest that this total cost could exceed $10 billion per year.

While setting up and maintaining a CBT-p program would obviously cost quite a bit of money, it would more than likely save the federal government a considerable amount in the longer term, even if CBT-p proved to only be moderately effective. Ongoing research is also likely to result in improvements to these techniques over time.

As well as saving costs it would provide an alternative for those who are unhappy with a drug based solution and offer the hope of a substantially enhanced quality of life. CBT-p can be used either as a stand alone treatment or in conjunction with anti-psychotic drugs.

Lobbying the federal government to provide a national CBT-p program might be of some value, particularly if it is pointed out that it could save money. The absence of such a program could simply be that no one has thought of it. It is also possible that the biomedical fraction have been actively lobbying the federal government with false or misleading information, which they are reported to have done in the past.

Getting the state government mental health organisations to cease and desist from bullying and abusing people with mental health disorders is likely to be a lot more of a challenge. This includes involuntary custody without trial and involuntary treatment orders (ITO’s).

Following the Victorian Royal Commission, there is talk of new legislation and revenue raising measures to fund additional facilities. In my view all this is futile unless massive cultural changes take place within the mental health administration. Otherwise we are likely to finish up with even more of the same toxic mess.

Initially, these changes need to take place at a federal, not a state level and possibly in the form of some sort of best world practices commission for mental health that becomes incumbent on the states to adhere to. Given the nature of politics I doubt if anything like this will happen harmoniously. It seems likely that it will at the very least require new federal government legislation and changes to federal and state government powers.

Don’t hold your breath waiting for something like that to happen quickly.

Here are some links to some of my previous posts that are related to this subject

Looking for a CBT-p Therapist. Two and a half years ago  

Still Looking for a CBT-p Therapist. A couple of weeks ago 

Different Views Of Mental Health and Medication 

Here is a link to the next post in this series

Finally Found A CBT-p Practitioner Part 2 

 

Regards

Willy

10 REPLIES 10

Re: Finally Found - A CBT-p Practitioner

thank you for your thoughtful post and wishing you all the best for your treatment/recovery

 

 

Re: Finally Found - A CBT-p Practitioner

Hi @Wanda 

I find your response extremely disappointing

Regards

Willy 

Re: Finally Found - A CBT-p Practitioner

Morning @Willy,

I don't think we've chatted before (excuse me if we have, my memory is not A+ at times) so as one would do in the "real world" I'd like to introduce myself 😊 My name here is Rhye and I'm a peer support worker in the SANE forums. 

I'd firstly like to acknowledge your response to one of our night moderators. I believe they were approaching the post with good intentions, however sometimes the night shifts can be quite hectic and it leaves little time for a more detailed response, which in this case I think it's fair to say your post deserved. Apologies from the team, I can understand your reaction, particularly given how much time and energy you put into communicating your points to the community.

You know what's interesting @Willy, to me at least, as a student who is currently studying psychology I hadn't even heard of CBT-p. Granted, I'm only a few years into my degree, but still...I think it kind of speaks to your point about raising the profile of the different kinds of treatments available to those at risk of, or living with, psychosis. I really appreciate you sharing your story here because it's pushed me to learn about about the treatment, and I will be enquiring about it within my degree too. 

I'm going to tag a few forumites who may find this topic of interest too @Gwynn @greenpea @Eden1919 @wild_rose @Jodstaar @blueberrymuffin 
@Rosie 

Looking forward to learning more and also exploring ways to advocate in this space (I might tag @Appleblossom here because you're good at this stuff, @chibam too, and also @maddison because I know we've had chats about advocacy too).

Rhye ☘️


Re: Finally Found - A CBT-p Practitioner

Hi @Willy 

 

My name is Maddison.

 

Thankyou for posting. The breadth and detail you have covered is exemplary. I have some understanding of where you are coming from. I live with someone diagnosed with schizophrenia & I know, that for him, taking anti psychotic medication is an unwanted hardship.

 

I commend  you for being proactive and so resourceful to find alternative treatments for your diagnosis. It is incredible. I am similar in that I like to research as well!

 

 

 

I hope that @Rhye response was able to give you some hope that your post was not in written in vain. I know from the small amount of research I have done personally, that MI is vastly overlooked in Australia, esp. in terms of treatments. That is why I agree that posts, like yours are truly valuable. Written from the perspective of someone diagnosed (rather than medical professionals!) as well as providing critical information. I believe posts like these are what we need to inspire change in the landscape of how we perceive & treat MI.

 

I am a lay person, who cannot change anything. I am happy that you were able to pass on this info to @Rhye , and I'm sorry that your initial response from @Wanda  was insufficient. I empathise with the disappointment you must have experienced. As I observe with my friend, who has schizophrenia - to feel dismissed can be hugely impactful, more so than someone 'so-called neurological typical', as the effort required to convey a message, in the way of your post can be so much more difficult.

 

I think that is all I wanted to say! Sorry I was not able to say it all as eloquently as you were. I'm happy that @Rhye was able to reach out to you (& me!). I absolutely agree that @Wanda was likely very busy, & knew your post deserved and in depth response, however gave you a 'quick acknowledgement' instead. I have to do this at times with my friend. Your response was perfectly reasonable 🙂

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Re: Finally Found - A CBT-p Practitioner

Hi @Willy 

Its really great you have finally find someone who does CBTp in Australia.  I have "spoken" with you before in your original posts about the approach.  I am totally behind therapuetic formulations of a wide variety, with medication a last port of call ... NOT the first ... I do not have personal experience of CBTp but it may be useful for someone I love ... so I keep looking out for good stuff ...

 

I like to see what others contribute and your posts really give me a sense of optimism and hope for the field, and a sense of NOT being so alone in my thinking.

 

Hearing you about the costs .... weary sigh ... most of my spare funds have gone into mental health, until the last 10 years when I finally had a bit more wriggle room..

 

Sometiimes I am bit brief, dont take it personally. I am recovering from an infection possibly Covid atm  Keep posting.

Apple

 

 

 

Re: Finally Found - A CBT-p Practitioner

Hi @Rhye ,

No we haven’t chatted before and thank for your response. It helped bring me around a bit from yesterday. I had been communicating with another person on this forum about their problems with what appeared to me to be a very unfair situation regarding an Involuntary Treatment Order (ITO). I found that person's situation very distressing. In my original post I also gave a brief account of my own most recent run in with what my naturopath calls “The Thought Police”. There have countless numbers of such incidents over the years but I actually think things have gotten quite a bit worse in recent times.

 

The rights of people in Australia with serious mental health issues seems to have eroded to an unbelievable level that appears to be in direct violation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (CRPD). If this sort of thing was happening in China or Russia, people would be up in arms about it but when it happens right here in Australia, everybody seems to turn and look the other way.

 

Your comment about never having heard of CBT-p as a psychology student is interesting but perhaps not surprising. During my two and a half year effort to find a practitioner, I constantly ran into brick walls and encountered numerous people employed within the mental health “industry” who didn’t seem to have a clue what I was talking about. The number of times some sanctimonious, official told me that I needed to go and talk to my psychiatrist nearly drove me nuts.

 

Between about 2000 and 2010, there appears to have been quite a lot of research and trials of CBT-p at various Australian universities. The reports seemed promising enough but all of a sudden this work seemed to come to a grinding halt. Presumably it was because of funding cuts but why? Keeping people who experience psychotic episodes chemically incarcerated with anti-psychotic medication cost the federal government huge amounts of money. Cutting programs that could not only save money but could also possibly improve the quality of life for those of us who find ourselves in this situation, doesn’t make any sense.

 

It is also worth noting that quite a lot of academic papers have been circulated claiming that CBT-p doesn’t work or offers results that are no better than anti-psychotic medication. I have studied a few of these and from what I have seen, the science looks pretty dodgy. For example I have seen studies based on measuring outcomes that are irrelevant to psychological interventions and then trying to compare the results to pharmacological outcomes. i.e. comparing apples with oranges.

 

I am not into conspiracy theories, but is appears likely that there is a connection between the increasing, heavy handed use of chemical restraints and the lack of availability of alternative non pharmaceutical treatments.

 

On a more promising note there appears to be some encouraging recent research. Here is a link to the published results of a trial carried out by the Queensland University in 2020

Report of CBT-p trial from QLD University 2020 

 

I will also endeavour to report my own experiences on this forum with CBT-p over the coming weeks and months

 

Regards

Willy

Re: Finally Found - A CBT-p Practitioner

Hi @maddison 

You said  "I am a lay person, who cannot change anything"  

And I am a person diagnosed with schizophrenia with even less credibility and therefore nominally even less ability to change things. 

Individually we are all pretty weak but collectively we can accomplish a lot. That is how other minority groups in Australia and elsewhere have gained recognition and rights. It is unlikely to come quickly or easily or without a struggle but it can happen if we simply join together with a common voice. 

I have seen enough pain and suffering on this forum to suggest that there are a lot of people out there who want a much better deal.

Regards

Willy 

Re: Finally Found - A CBT-p Practitioner

Hi @Willy ,

 

Thanks for reply.

 

Well said. 

And you have highlighted an important fact - we all do create change.... & that deserves acknowledgment🙂

 

Thanks

Re: Finally Found - A CBT-p Practitioner

No problem @Willy, always happy to have a chat 😊

I followed the link you shared to the QUT trial and is very interesting, and quite promising as you say. This research is dated 2020 so I wonder if there are any pilots trials currently underway, as the authors had suggested in terms of future research into this area. This got me curious so I went searching in the uni database and found the following article, which seems to align with the experience you've been communicating, as well as others here in the forum – https://doi.org/10.1007/s10597-020-00611-w

The discussion reads as follows: 

It is recommended that research be conducted in order to identify specific elements of training that support attitude shift and skill development, for specific provider roles, especially when working with individuals diagnosed with schizophrenia. Such information may help to shape future CBT-p training events so that a process of continuous learning may be initiated that serves to support ongoing adoption of recovery-oriented care practices informed by CBT-p.

 

I'd be keen to hear your thoughts on this study.

Rhye ☘️

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